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Manuel 1:29 Sat Jun 3
FA Cup Final

The first 3pm KO since 2011, almost feels like the old days!

I've lost interest a bit in recent finals, but fancy this might be a good watch.

Narrow City win, for me.

southbankbornnbred 7:11 Tue Jun 6
Re: FA Cup Final

Scorch,

Yep, I remember the book/manual well. Even the guy who taught my basic and intermediate coaching courses - ex-Hammers player and Leyton Orient manager, Tommy Taylor - thought it was a load of nonsense. But he said that if you taught an FA coaching course at the time, you had to stick to that because it was the FA's blueprint for coaching/playing the game.

Tommy didn't like a bit of it, but managed to get many of us through the courses.

Those days are long gone. I barely used my coaching badges after I left university and never pursued the advanced/expert courses. Mind you, I was a shit coach - that probably had a lot to do with it!

El Scorchio 3:37 Tue Jun 6
Re: FA Cup Final

southbankbornnbred 8:15

Wow- so you're really au fait with it then! I'd never even heard of that coaching manual until the other week. Thanks for putting all that down. Much appreciated. So interesting (and insane) that everything was based on something that was woefully unfit for purpose, and it had such a huge and detrimental effect on the English game domestically and internationally.

Feels like there's definitely some of it in Moyes' modus operandi as well as the other two managers you mentioned. Thinking of Pulis and a few others as well. Dyche? I suppose it's a handy way of playing the percentages and levelling up the playing field and maximising potential/minimising risk or takign a shortcut if you're woefully outclassed in terms of the skill and ability of your players, but it's clearly not something that works very often or for a sustained period of time at a club, especially if you want to be consistently good.

southbankbornnbred 3:19 Tue Jun 6
Re: FA Cup Final

Capitol,

I think you mean 1990? But, yep, definitely take your point fella. There was a lot of talent in that side.

Jasnik 11:36 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

southbankbornnbred 10:27 Mon Jun 5

I meant rather than Bellingham.

Capitol Man 11:02 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

SBBB.- Robson's side in 92 had Gazza, but also Lineker and Platt, who often managed to deliver goals when the pressure was on.

southbankbornnbred 10:27 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Grealish is a good player. But he's no Gascoigne.

Jasnik 9:25 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Gascoigne-style - I was expecting Grealish to be that.

RBshorty 9:21 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

The only English manager we had who went for the throat was Venables. And that 96 campaign had its fair share of luck about it. The the blazers weren’t that impressed by either.

Unfortunately for us. It’s either Yes Men. Or job for the boys.

southbankbornnbred 9:01 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

No - but, equally, I don't think England have sleepless nights about anybody either.

That's not to say that there aren't better sides than England out there. There absolutely are. But we have closed what was a big gap in recent years - and have absolutely nothing to be scared of. We even outplayed France in the second half of that World Cup game. Probably edged the match, tbh, but the missed penalty cost us dearly.

England are definitely a top 8 side, so the quarter-final tag probably fits. When they get it right, they can go to semi-finals and possibly even a final. They still haven't produced a Gascoigne-style difference-maker for some time, though. Everybody is hoping that's what Bellingham becomes (in his own way/style), but let's see.

But that's what frustrates me about Southgate. Personally, I think he has little to lose - England are a good side, but not expected to win things right now. Everybody perceives that there are better teams out there (France, Argentina etc). But we do have some fine players - so throw a bit of caution to the wind...starting the Euros final with eight or nine men in primarily defensive-first positions was nuts...in a home final...

RBshorty 8:49 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Personally we are a quarter finalist at best. If we have progressed further in any competition it’s either because we had a favourable draw. Or the opposition have run out of juice. We respect the top teams too much as well. Do you think the French, Brazilian’s and the likes. Have sleepless nights about playing us.?

southbankbornnbred 8:35 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Shorty - fair point!

Although I think that coaching is more highly valued, and certainly more scientific, at the FA these days.

It has to be, because the Prem clubs have big academies and lots of foreign influences over how they coach youngsters at a much younger age. Part (though not all) of that has eventually fed through to the FA.

The best clubs will always be ahead of the FA in terms of coaching knowledge and systems. But you have to hope that the FA are flexible enough these days to promote a better approach - and pick better coaches.

Southgate got the job when pretty much nobody else wanted it. I don't like his style - far too Moyesball in big games - but he has done well with England.

RBshorty 8:25 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Don’t think the FA have changed that much since then.? We got a squad of players who can go toe to toe with the best of them. But they insist on playing Moyesball when we play the very best.

southbankbornnbred 8:24 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Btw, Graham Taylor got the England job almost entirely on the basis that he was a devotee of Charles Hughes when Hughes' manual was still the FA's official coaching bible.

Taylor turned up for the England interview and just bounced back to the panel the information in the (seemingly) one book he'd read about coaching - which happened to be their deeply flawed blueprint. Talk about an echo chamber.

Villa had just had a decent season, with Platt and McGrath playing so well. But they'd won nothing. Suddenly, Taylor landed the England job when it should have gone elsewhere. Because his face fitted at the FA.

southbankbornnbred 8:15 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Scorch - spot on, mate! That coaching manual was produced for the FA by (RAF) Wing Commander Charles Hughes - who somehow found himself to be director of football. Even though his background in coaching was poor.

He was everything that was wrong with the FA and English football for decades. Utterly convinced that, through poor and mistaken data analysis, most goals were scored from three touches or less - he was largely responsible for the long-ball game that dominated English football coaching for decades.

I even had to study his bloody book when I did a basic FA coaching course in the early 90s. I'm no expert, believe me, but it was atrocious. It was the recommended reading for the course, because all the assessment questions and practicals were based on it! It was nuts.

We've come a long way since. But it took 20 years or more to start catching up with how the likes of Spain, France, Germany and Holland coach the game - and promote coaching.

Thankfully, with Greenwood and Lyall at the helm, we managed to avoid much of the Charlie Hughes influence! But he had his devotees, like Harry Basset and, later, one Sam Allardyce...

RBshorty 8:15 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

As good as Wenger was. And the results he got. With the constraints he worked under. He always had an inferiority complex with regards to Ferguson and ManU. (Very un French.!)

southbankbornnbred 8:02 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Swiss - Arsenal also had Lauren (an excellent right-back), Campbell and Cole (about the best left-back in the world at the time) in defence. Plus Van Persie on the subs bench.

The Man Utd team that night featured Carroll in goal (not long before he joined us), O'Shea and Heinze in defence (regarded at the time by their fans as weak links) and Fletcher in midfield. Silvestre played CB, and not at left back, which weakened them further. They had a lot of injuries.

Man for man that night, and being at home, Arsenal were expected to be stronger. That seemed to be the consensus.

That tunnel incident was mostly handbags, but it was funny. Vieira was definitely rattled by Keane, no matter what he has said since. "Banging on about Senegal - why don't you f**king play for them, then?!"

Keane certainly knew how to rattle opponents.

Swiss. 4:04 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Actually I forgot Arsenal also had Pires and Ljungberg . Still pretty even

Swiss. 3:56 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

southbankbornnbred 5:54 Sun Jun 4

In that infamous match yes Arsenal had Bergkamp, Henry and Viera . Man U had Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes , Keane and Giggs. I don’t their squad was weaker at all.

El Scorchio 3:20 Mon Jun 5
Re: FA Cup Final

Must have wondered what all the fuss was. How bizarre they were getting noted as a group even at that age but it just goes to show what amazing timing it was for them as a club.

Briano 10:48 Sun Jun 4
Re: FA Cup Final

El Scorchio

Playing Saturday afternoons, our home ground was Wimbledon’s training ground off the A3 near Roehampton. This particular day I saw one of the pitches roped off with about 300 - 400 people watching, I wandered over to see an under 15 game between Wimbledon and Manu, incredibly high standard and although I didn’t know at the time class of ‘92

El Scorchio 7:05 Sun Jun 4
Re: FA Cup Final

southbankbornnbred 5:39

Cheers! Yeah definitely agree on the midfield part. The return to Europe doc on BT had a lot about how we’d tactically fallen so far behind in only five or so years after the ban. The national team was in the same boat so far behind as well. They talked about a study that was so wrong that it’s insane that the FA took as dogma about the least amount of touches being the most efficient way to score which really didn’t help and was incorporated into the coaching. I’d never heard of it before but it definitely played into the commitment to 442 and direct football.

Agree on Wenger. Never a plan B, although plan A was usually pretty bloody good. Fergie did wring the absolute maximum out of all his players and they’d all run through walls for the man.

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